Thank you for this. I stopped following Berenson after his destructive, unwarranted, ill-conceived, malicious & just plain stupid character assault on Dr. Malone.
A word on shingles. 2 decades ago broke out in the torso rash. I guessed what it was, but had jury duty so grabbed my herbal books to read during wait times. Was thrilled to discover that I had growing in my garden all I needed...When I got home I made a very strong infusion of every mint family plant I had, from oregano to catmint. I strained out the leaves & drank the "tea" throughout the day. I bandaged my torso with the strained leaves, wrapped in cotton batting sprinkled with cayenne pepper. I covered the cotton with a piece of plastic wrap, then a horse bandage around the outside to hold it all in place.
I was able to work both office & minifarm. Iirc it resolved within a week. I had the distinct sense that had I been able to treat from onset, it would have been resolved in half that time.
Less convenient than pills, but free, educational & self-empowering!
That is awesome Mary! Would you mind to share which herbal books were you reading? I’ve started reading and trying to learn about herbs and their wonderful constituents and applications. I grew up surrounded by the use of herbs and plants as medicine but didn’t really pay attention or appreciated it until recent years. I have watched how my own health and that of many of my relatives and friends have declined under the ‘care’ of our modern medicine. So I started looking for books on the subject and I’ve been taking some courses online to try to learn as much as I can about using herbs as support for our health. I’m fascinated to say the least and wished I would’ve started earlier as it is an extensive topic.
I had access to Ivermectin early, so had it and HCQ on hand when hubby and I contracted Covid in February, 2021. I took the IVM and he took the HCQ - both with Zinc. We sailed through without fever or cough, but felt crummy for 4 days. About 10 years ago, I contracted viral meningitis from Herpes Zoster (chickenpox at age 1, now 65), the same virus that causes shingles. Mine infected my spinal column and brain causing 3 weeks of hospitalization and (drum roll) 32 bags of Acyclovir and antibiotics. Why the hell did they keep infusing me? Because they could. I came home with a port and another week of infused antiviral. I slept for 15 hours a day for the next 6 months with relapses over the next 5 years, and I learned a very important lesson about healthcare - it's all about the insurance reimbursement, and if I was ever going to get well I had do it myself. Dietary lesson? Lysine tamps down viral replication and Arginine feeds them. Had they given me Ivermectin early on, 5 years of healthy life would have been mine for the taking, but hell no, there was no money in it. The only good thing about this entire shit show for me is that I discovered this wonder drug. They know it prevents shingles, but they have to sell those Shingle Shots for $450 a pop! Grrrrrrrrr.
Thanks for posting. I am 66 and had the opposite happen: I got shingles in April 2021. It went to my eye because urgent care insisted the first sore on my eyebrow was nothing. Two days later my eye swelled shut (I didn't have shingles vax). But then, during the subsequent 2 week checks with optometrist, he dropped some hints that he had seen lots of shingles in eyes "after the vaccine". He quickly shut up when I asked him if he thought there was a connection. I was scared to get the covid vax especially after his remarks, along with the fact that it was so new. I was afraid the shingles would flare up again and optometrist insisted that I needed to be careful for any sign of inflammation flaring up. I, like you had ivermectin on hand and got covid New Years Day 2022 and just sailed through it, even though it was likely omicron. So are you suggesting that Ivermectin would be good to take at the first start of shingles, if they ever flare up again? I am wary of the shingles vax because my sister got the shingles vax and pneumonia vax the same day and reacted so bad she could hardly drive to a relative's house to crash.
Yes. I will never combine vaccines like that. Hate to say this, but it was Mayo Clinic wellness program and rather disappointing. They wanted to give her 3 vaccines!
Holy cow what a story! Horrible. You reminded me of the time my daughter had a mild case of shingles at age three. She had had chicken pox as a four month baby so I knew it was a possibility, yet it was so mild it didn’t register at first. Invariably we didn’t decide to call the doctor until the weekend and since you get whoever is on duty they basically threw the pharmacy at it. Having experienced healthcare in the Netherlands I was not amused by the copays for crap we ultimately didn’t need. It was all just in case. If my hubby had been there he would have refused it all, good dutchman that he is (the doctors here still famously prescribe two Tylenol and a call back in a day or two). As it is, I came home and he laughed and explained once again—sweetie, it’s an awfully cruel but obvious business model. Ultimately, subsequent healthcare drama led us to abandon our American experiment and return to the Netherlands. Mostly things are better, but the higher degree of collectivism does get oppressive sometimes and can slid easily into fascism a little too quickly for my American tastes.
I hadn’t heard the term “Dutchman” in years and you made me laugh. My mother was very frugal, and my dad called her (That dang) Dutchman every time she saved a penny.
Ha ha that's funny. Especially because I didn't mean it colloquially, my husband is a bona fide Dutch citizen. I didn't grow up hearing it used that way. We used to call people Pake (which is slang for Chinese in Hawaii) It wasn't flattering, but I'm guessing these days it would be considered offensive. Alternatively my dad often used scotchman with the same connotation. My mom grew up with Jew as the stereotype of a tightwad. Do the stereotypes hold up? Who even knows. Can't use them anymore in any case!
My mother’s maiden name was Klutts (Americanized from Klotz). She was extremely thrifty. My dad always referred to her as “that damned Dutchman,” when her thrift took hold.
My brother, when he was a young college student, got infectious mononucleosis with some other complications and ended up in the hospital. He was treated for almost two months. Everyone profited. The hospital and drug companies got paid. My parents both worked, so they were getting double reimbursement from their insurance since both parents had coverage. Later on my brother was outraged that they (including our parents) let him stay extra long in order to profit.
So sorry you had to go thru all that! But thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge, It is infuriating and so frustrating to know that healthcare in this country is everything but that, it should be called hellcare!
Great work. I was once on the Alex train, but found his rudeness and arrogance unacceptable. Glad I found your substack. Informative, without the irritation. Thank you!
Their “primary” endpoint upon which they base their headline conclusion should never have been classified as SEVERE Covid—-specifically, giving supplemental oxygen for those falling below 95% oxygen saturation among hospitalized Covid patients who are over 50 with co-morbidities is NOT a severe state, especially given that we don’t have baseline O2 Sat % for the patients. And, looking more closely at the data, it appears there is a slight negative correlation between their “severe” primary endpoint and the downrange, secondary endpoints. In other words, more IVM patients fell below the 95% oxygen sat level but far fewer in the IVM group died later, nearly reaching the broadly used .05 p value, only because it was an underpowered study. If their definition of “severe” was really severe, wouldn’t it correlate with more severe outcomes, like ventilation or death? I definitely would have preferred to have IVM in my system, as it would have provided a better chance of walking out of the hospital alive!
I'm so glad you brought this up. I did not understand, myself, why these patients were being classified as "severe" when most of them didn't even end up in the ICU. Since none of the other writers that I read raised that issue, I assumed I must be missing something.
While I can understand why they didn’t use, let’s say an O2 % of 85, as a measure of severity BEFORE providing supplemental O2, why not report on the average O2 flow rate required to maintain 95%? That would have been a better proxy of Covid severity and better predicted the likelihood of more severe disease progression, such ICU admission, ventilation or death. For example, if one patient requires 5 liters of O2 to hold 95 and another .5 liters, that speaks loudly of the severity of their cases! But, such a primary endpoint might have shown earlier success for the IVM group (in addition to its later stage success) and then the study never would have been published! I guess we should be thankful it was published since that gave us the opportunity to point out the flaws😉
I have come to the conclusion that 1) Alex likes to argue and 2) Alex does not apologize. Ever. 3) Alex can be rude. 4) Alex has now gained more rude followers. (Including Anthony J Barton and AeroYev, who I suspect are nom de plume for Alex and his helper, Ray!).
So. Now I skim Alex's writing and try to avoid the comment section. Sad, because there _was_ a nice Substack community there. Ah well. Maybe Alex will get back on Twitter, which is better suited for the arguments and rudeness. Or maybe a miracle will happen and Alex will learn.
Meantime, I'll migrate to other Substack authors who contribute good works. Like this!
Interesting observations. Personally, I'm not sure what motivates Alex. He does seem to enjoy the role of contrarian. Beyond that, I can't really tell what's driving him or why he takes the positions he does.
I think he serves a purpose and voice particularly regarding censorship. However his readers shouldn’t need him to validate their beliefs. Most of his subscribers are probably better versed in COVID issues. Also there are so many great substack writers now that he is probably worried over their popularity. I think it’s good to read other views even if they don’t always perfectly align with mine.
Really great comparisons, Darby. So true about shingles and needing immediate treatment. I met a woman who had shingles coming on at 5 PM Friday. By the time she got to the doctor on Monday morning, it was too late, nerve damage in her leg was done. She had to rely on a cane after that, for life. Not to be taken lightly at all! Early treatment is a must.
When you said there was something in common, I was wondering about the way chickenpox lives in the spinal nerve roots, and can emerge as shingles later. And how herpes simplex is similar in the way it comes and goes, and similar prodrome feelings. Also wondering about how people with covid/vax are getting recurrent/constant herpes (read that on Jessica Rose and heard it elsewhere, too). So now I'm wondering if there has been any news about the spike migrating to the spinal nerve roots, too. Also other herpes are suspected in long covid, for example, Epstein-Barr (aka mono). Reminder of the herpes family: https://www.medbroadcast.com/channel/infection/herpes/herpes-virus-8-types Hmmm ...
Again, great write up. I will need to re-read this later! Thanks.
So, when do we begin the trials for crimes against humanity for all of the agencies and health authorities that discredited medicines that could have saved people and pushing harmful medicines like Remdesivir when they would have been administered too late anyway?
I think we all want to know when someone is going to be held accountable for something, finally, after all the terrible things that we've experienced during this pandemic.
Watching hospitals become unsafe places to go has been most concerning. As you noted, giving antivirals once someone has reached the point of hospitalization? How can any doctor think 'well, the NIH advises this, so I'll go against my understanding of how antivirals work and administer this Remdesivir anyway and hope it doesn't further damage an already inflammed body'?? It is absurd
Great article! I believe the shingles vax is recommended for ages 60+ but most of the cases I have heard about is in much younger people- one in his 20’s. After the COVID fiasco, I don’t think i would ever trust the shingles vax. I read up on some bad reactions. I didn’t know an antiviral taken at the onset could stop its progression.
Shingles seems to now be common in people under 60. Actually, I believe this is another unintended consequence (or is it intended? who knows, anymore?) of vaccination. Prior to the chicken pox vaccine, there were annual breakouts of chicken pox in the community. These outbreaks served as booster shots in adults who had already had chicken pox as children. It kept them from getting Shingles. The only people who were really vulnerable to Shingles were the elderly, presumably because they would tend to become isolated and would no longer have that continuance exposure to chicken pox in the community. Now, with so few chicken pox outbreaks -- because of the chicken pox vaccine -- younger people are getting Shingles. So we've traded what for most people is a mild disease in childhood for a more more serious one in adulthood.
I'm 72, so I had chicken pox as a kid and never a vaccine. I'm not sure if my sister (born in 1958) ever got the vaccine or not, but she apparently got a case of shingles in her late 20's. Then when I was probably in my late 50's I got a small, odd patch that my doctor thought was shingles, and I can't remember how it was treated but it did go away. Perhaps I was given some sort of antiviral. She recommended that after the patch was long gone, probably 6 months later, I should get the shingles vaccine to prevent recurrence. I did get the vaccine, I'm sorry to say, but there's another newer one out now and I don't plan to get that one. I hope I didn't cause unknown problems from that first vaccine, though.
Thank you for this. I stopped following Berenson after his destructive, unwarranted, ill-conceived, malicious & just plain stupid character assault on Dr. Malone.
A word on shingles. 2 decades ago broke out in the torso rash. I guessed what it was, but had jury duty so grabbed my herbal books to read during wait times. Was thrilled to discover that I had growing in my garden all I needed...When I got home I made a very strong infusion of every mint family plant I had, from oregano to catmint. I strained out the leaves & drank the "tea" throughout the day. I bandaged my torso with the strained leaves, wrapped in cotton batting sprinkled with cayenne pepper. I covered the cotton with a piece of plastic wrap, then a horse bandage around the outside to hold it all in place.
I was able to work both office & minifarm. Iirc it resolved within a week. I had the distinct sense that had I been able to treat from onset, it would have been resolved in half that time.
Less convenient than pills, but free, educational & self-empowering!
That is awesome!
That is awesome Mary! Would you mind to share which herbal books were you reading? I’ve started reading and trying to learn about herbs and their wonderful constituents and applications. I grew up surrounded by the use of herbs and plants as medicine but didn’t really pay attention or appreciated it until recent years. I have watched how my own health and that of many of my relatives and friends have declined under the ‘care’ of our modern medicine. So I started looking for books on the subject and I’ve been taking some courses online to try to learn as much as I can about using herbs as support for our health. I’m fascinated to say the least and wished I would’ve started earlier as it is an extensive topic.
Excellent. Very informative!
Thank you!
I had access to Ivermectin early, so had it and HCQ on hand when hubby and I contracted Covid in February, 2021. I took the IVM and he took the HCQ - both with Zinc. We sailed through without fever or cough, but felt crummy for 4 days. About 10 years ago, I contracted viral meningitis from Herpes Zoster (chickenpox at age 1, now 65), the same virus that causes shingles. Mine infected my spinal column and brain causing 3 weeks of hospitalization and (drum roll) 32 bags of Acyclovir and antibiotics. Why the hell did they keep infusing me? Because they could. I came home with a port and another week of infused antiviral. I slept for 15 hours a day for the next 6 months with relapses over the next 5 years, and I learned a very important lesson about healthcare - it's all about the insurance reimbursement, and if I was ever going to get well I had do it myself. Dietary lesson? Lysine tamps down viral replication and Arginine feeds them. Had they given me Ivermectin early on, 5 years of healthy life would have been mine for the taking, but hell no, there was no money in it. The only good thing about this entire shit show for me is that I discovered this wonder drug. They know it prevents shingles, but they have to sell those Shingle Shots for $450 a pop! Grrrrrrrrr.
So sorry to hear what you went through!
Thank you for enlightening us all!
Thanks for posting. I am 66 and had the opposite happen: I got shingles in April 2021. It went to my eye because urgent care insisted the first sore on my eyebrow was nothing. Two days later my eye swelled shut (I didn't have shingles vax). But then, during the subsequent 2 week checks with optometrist, he dropped some hints that he had seen lots of shingles in eyes "after the vaccine". He quickly shut up when I asked him if he thought there was a connection. I was scared to get the covid vax especially after his remarks, along with the fact that it was so new. I was afraid the shingles would flare up again and optometrist insisted that I needed to be careful for any sign of inflammation flaring up. I, like you had ivermectin on hand and got covid New Years Day 2022 and just sailed through it, even though it was likely omicron. So are you suggesting that Ivermectin would be good to take at the first start of shingles, if they ever flare up again? I am wary of the shingles vax because my sister got the shingles vax and pneumonia vax the same day and reacted so bad she could hardly drive to a relative's house to crash.
A friend of mine has recurring shingles on one side of her face. She has had great results using IVM. They are gone the next day.
Thank God she didn't crash before she got there.
Yes. I will never combine vaccines like that. Hate to say this, but it was Mayo Clinic wellness program and rather disappointing. They wanted to give her 3 vaccines!
Holy cow what a story! Horrible. You reminded me of the time my daughter had a mild case of shingles at age three. She had had chicken pox as a four month baby so I knew it was a possibility, yet it was so mild it didn’t register at first. Invariably we didn’t decide to call the doctor until the weekend and since you get whoever is on duty they basically threw the pharmacy at it. Having experienced healthcare in the Netherlands I was not amused by the copays for crap we ultimately didn’t need. It was all just in case. If my hubby had been there he would have refused it all, good dutchman that he is (the doctors here still famously prescribe two Tylenol and a call back in a day or two). As it is, I came home and he laughed and explained once again—sweetie, it’s an awfully cruel but obvious business model. Ultimately, subsequent healthcare drama led us to abandon our American experiment and return to the Netherlands. Mostly things are better, but the higher degree of collectivism does get oppressive sometimes and can slid easily into fascism a little too quickly for my American tastes.
I hadn’t heard the term “Dutchman” in years and you made me laugh. My mother was very frugal, and my dad called her (That dang) Dutchman every time she saved a penny.
Ha ha that's funny. Especially because I didn't mean it colloquially, my husband is a bona fide Dutch citizen. I didn't grow up hearing it used that way. We used to call people Pake (which is slang for Chinese in Hawaii) It wasn't flattering, but I'm guessing these days it would be considered offensive. Alternatively my dad often used scotchman with the same connotation. My mom grew up with Jew as the stereotype of a tightwad. Do the stereotypes hold up? Who even knows. Can't use them anymore in any case!
My mother’s maiden name was Klutts (Americanized from Klotz). She was extremely thrifty. My dad always referred to her as “that damned Dutchman,” when her thrift took hold.
My brother, when he was a young college student, got infectious mononucleosis with some other complications and ended up in the hospital. He was treated for almost two months. Everyone profited. The hospital and drug companies got paid. My parents both worked, so they were getting double reimbursement from their insurance since both parents had coverage. Later on my brother was outraged that they (including our parents) let him stay extra long in order to profit.
I was released for a day, then readmitted! I was such a dummy, but was scared and uninformed. I felt very used when I figured it out.
antibiotics for a viral infection?
Makes no sense, does it? It took 4 days to rule out bacterial meningitis- slow lab!
So sorry you had to go thru all that! But thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge, It is infuriating and so frustrating to know that healthcare in this country is everything but that, it should be called hellcare!
Great work. I was once on the Alex train, but found his rudeness and arrogance unacceptable. Glad I found your substack. Informative, without the irritation. Thank you!
I, too, have been glad to find other writers here at Substack so that I don't have to rely on Berenson so much.
On July 23, 2020, Newsweek published an opinion by Dr. Harvey Risch, The Key to Defeating COVID-19 Already Exists. We Need to Start Using It. (https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535) The following week in Houston, the "Frontline Doctors", held a news conference with similar news regarding HCQ and the censoring and all the ugliness began.
Their “primary” endpoint upon which they base their headline conclusion should never have been classified as SEVERE Covid—-specifically, giving supplemental oxygen for those falling below 95% oxygen saturation among hospitalized Covid patients who are over 50 with co-morbidities is NOT a severe state, especially given that we don’t have baseline O2 Sat % for the patients. And, looking more closely at the data, it appears there is a slight negative correlation between their “severe” primary endpoint and the downrange, secondary endpoints. In other words, more IVM patients fell below the 95% oxygen sat level but far fewer in the IVM group died later, nearly reaching the broadly used .05 p value, only because it was an underpowered study. If their definition of “severe” was really severe, wouldn’t it correlate with more severe outcomes, like ventilation or death? I definitely would have preferred to have IVM in my system, as it would have provided a better chance of walking out of the hospital alive!
I'm so glad you brought this up. I did not understand, myself, why these patients were being classified as "severe" when most of them didn't even end up in the ICU. Since none of the other writers that I read raised that issue, I assumed I must be missing something.
While I can understand why they didn’t use, let’s say an O2 % of 85, as a measure of severity BEFORE providing supplemental O2, why not report on the average O2 flow rate required to maintain 95%? That would have been a better proxy of Covid severity and better predicted the likelihood of more severe disease progression, such ICU admission, ventilation or death. For example, if one patient requires 5 liters of O2 to hold 95 and another .5 liters, that speaks loudly of the severity of their cases! But, such a primary endpoint might have shown earlier success for the IVM group (in addition to its later stage success) and then the study never would have been published! I guess we should be thankful it was published since that gave us the opportunity to point out the flaws😉
All very good points. Thank you!
Yes! 95% and no baseline. I made the same point in another substack. Your comment is more complete. And +1 to "underpowered" ...!
Excellent article. Thank you.
I have come to the conclusion that 1) Alex likes to argue and 2) Alex does not apologize. Ever. 3) Alex can be rude. 4) Alex has now gained more rude followers. (Including Anthony J Barton and AeroYev, who I suspect are nom de plume for Alex and his helper, Ray!).
So. Now I skim Alex's writing and try to avoid the comment section. Sad, because there _was_ a nice Substack community there. Ah well. Maybe Alex will get back on Twitter, which is better suited for the arguments and rudeness. Or maybe a miracle will happen and Alex will learn.
Meantime, I'll migrate to other Substack authors who contribute good works. Like this!
Interesting observations. Personally, I'm not sure what motivates Alex. He does seem to enjoy the role of contrarian. Beyond that, I can't really tell what's driving him or why he takes the positions he does.
I think he serves a purpose and voice particularly regarding censorship. However his readers shouldn’t need him to validate their beliefs. Most of his subscribers are probably better versed in COVID issues. Also there are so many great substack writers now that he is probably worried over their popularity. I think it’s good to read other views even if they don’t always perfectly align with mine.
I concur with you Darby Shaw, I’m no sure what motivates Alex, the whole ivermectin denial thing is just wild
I 100% agree with you!!
Really great comparisons, Darby. So true about shingles and needing immediate treatment. I met a woman who had shingles coming on at 5 PM Friday. By the time she got to the doctor on Monday morning, it was too late, nerve damage in her leg was done. She had to rely on a cane after that, for life. Not to be taken lightly at all! Early treatment is a must.
When you said there was something in common, I was wondering about the way chickenpox lives in the spinal nerve roots, and can emerge as shingles later. And how herpes simplex is similar in the way it comes and goes, and similar prodrome feelings. Also wondering about how people with covid/vax are getting recurrent/constant herpes (read that on Jessica Rose and heard it elsewhere, too). So now I'm wondering if there has been any news about the spike migrating to the spinal nerve roots, too. Also other herpes are suspected in long covid, for example, Epstein-Barr (aka mono). Reminder of the herpes family: https://www.medbroadcast.com/channel/infection/herpes/herpes-virus-8-types Hmmm ...
Again, great write up. I will need to re-read this later! Thanks.
So, when do we begin the trials for crimes against humanity for all of the agencies and health authorities that discredited medicines that could have saved people and pushing harmful medicines like Remdesivir when they would have been administered too late anyway?
I think we all want to know when someone is going to be held accountable for something, finally, after all the terrible things that we've experienced during this pandemic.
Watching hospitals become unsafe places to go has been most concerning. As you noted, giving antivirals once someone has reached the point of hospitalization? How can any doctor think 'well, the NIH advises this, so I'll go against my understanding of how antivirals work and administer this Remdesivir anyway and hope it doesn't further damage an already inflammed body'?? It is absurd
I'm an Acyclovir user since a kid, have herpex simplex from my parents. It works if u use it as soon as you feel something unusual around your lips.
But I'm here to link this interesting paper too, if you are registered to Academia.eu you can download it https://www.academia.edu/45000293/COVID_cure_or_perpetual_vaccination_30_cheap_effective_treatments_or_never_ending_ineffective_unsafe_injections_Scientific_proof_of_the_PLANdemic_with_1000_peer_reviewed_published_references?email_work_card=title
If not there is a shorter version here https://thesiscommons.org/trz5s/
Thank you. I will be very interested to read this.
I get the feeling that Alex lost a great many subscribers at that point. Stupid man.
BTW. Great article Darby.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻Great post!
Indeed Alex should not have taken a stance outside his area of expertise
Impressively thorough analysis.. Well done!
This is great Darby! Thanks for sharing
Great article! I believe the shingles vax is recommended for ages 60+ but most of the cases I have heard about is in much younger people- one in his 20’s. After the COVID fiasco, I don’t think i would ever trust the shingles vax. I read up on some bad reactions. I didn’t know an antiviral taken at the onset could stop its progression.
Shingles seems to now be common in people under 60. Actually, I believe this is another unintended consequence (or is it intended? who knows, anymore?) of vaccination. Prior to the chicken pox vaccine, there were annual breakouts of chicken pox in the community. These outbreaks served as booster shots in adults who had already had chicken pox as children. It kept them from getting Shingles. The only people who were really vulnerable to Shingles were the elderly, presumably because they would tend to become isolated and would no longer have that continuance exposure to chicken pox in the community. Now, with so few chicken pox outbreaks -- because of the chicken pox vaccine -- younger people are getting Shingles. So we've traded what for most people is a mild disease in childhood for a more more serious one in adulthood.
I'm 72, so I had chicken pox as a kid and never a vaccine. I'm not sure if my sister (born in 1958) ever got the vaccine or not, but she apparently got a case of shingles in her late 20's. Then when I was probably in my late 50's I got a small, odd patch that my doctor thought was shingles, and I can't remember how it was treated but it did go away. Perhaps I was given some sort of antiviral. She recommended that after the patch was long gone, probably 6 months later, I should get the shingles vaccine to prevent recurrence. I did get the vaccine, I'm sorry to say, but there's another newer one out now and I don't plan to get that one. I hope I didn't cause unknown problems from that first vaccine, though.